Human Powered Season 2, Episode 2 Transcript
"A mic and five minutes"

Mark: I got this I guess…Hey everybody, my story is titled a day in my life in apartment 4E. 

Adam: This is Mark Español, sharing a story he wrote in prison.

MARK: By the power of grayskull! He was tuned into the dilapidated 13-inch television set that sat in the room that he shared with his siblings…

Adam: It was for a college English class through a University of Wisconsin-Madison program called Odyssey Beyond Bars. Mark was one of 15 people in class that day, of about 700 people incarcerated in that prison.

Mark: …fully equipped with this He-Man and Battlecat action figures in hand, he sat there lost in the fantasies of his favorite show that for half hour a day, took him out of the realities of apartment 4E.

Adam: To give more context - the United States has 5% of the world’s population, but is responsible for 20% of the world’s prison population. So this season on Human Powered, we’re looking at incarceration through a humanities lens. How do humans express themselves creatively and find meaning, even in dehumanizing circumstances, and why does this matter for all of us? 

{>>instrumental ambient music fades in<<}

I’m Adam Carr, public historian and co-host of Human Powered, along with Dasha Kelly Hamilton. 

This episode, we’re spending time with the Odyssey Beyond Bars English program. Odyssey Beyond Bars started in 2018, as a spinoff from the Odyssey Project, a program founded by Emily Auerbach at University of Wisconsin-Madison. It offers free humanities classes to people who have faced significant barriers to education.

Odyssey Beyond Bars brings that idea to people incarcerated in Wisconsin State prisons. And it’s one of very few programs like it offered by our state’s flagship school—in fact, it’s UW-Madison’s first face-to-face credit-bearing course inside any state prison since 1917. And it’s one example of how the humanities can help people re-imagine the story of their lives.

{>>upbeat music with electric piano comes in<<}

Mark: Some of us, like myself, had no writing experience. I mean, I've taken some classes and I was working towards my associate's degree. but as far as like engaging into creative writing, it opened my eyes to the purpose, the bigger meaning of why I went through this, you know, being in prison does a lot to you, man. You,  your faith goes up, your faith goes down, you believe in a higher power. You know, you pray to God, you stop praying to God. You get mad, you get sad. So it's, um, it's an experience. 

Adam: This is Human Powered, from Wisconsin Humanities and Field Noise Soundworks.

{>>MUSIC DOWN<<}

Adam: Let’s bring in my co-host—Dasha Kelly, how are you today?

Dasha: I am well, I will say I am well.

Adam: we just heard Mark talk about the ups and the downs holding onto faith, feeling it slip away, and how creative writing for him was a conduit into purpose, into meaning. You've taught Odyssey Beyond Bars classes before. Can you tell me about that experience?

Dasha: So when I would go into these carceral spaces, two things happen: so one you have folks in the space that are really excited about finding their voice as storytellers and writers, and by the time I'm there, they're already invested. But you can see that they're still uncertain about where their story falls or if they're doing it just right. 

And so I really felt excited to be in a space of folks who aren't always sure that they air quotes, get to call themselves writers or storytellers, l just love being able to, stir that alchemy in a room, especially in a room that you don't expect to have magic in it. 

Adam: Can you talk about that feeling of, of what it means to invite someone in such a challenging situation to start writing? 

Dasha: I think the biggest piece Adam is I really go into these spaces from the beginning, knowing what I bring into the room. I bring an energy to into the room.  And a lot of experience in making this classroom a sanctuary. my interest is not about teaching people how to write. Through teaching people how to write my ultimate goal happens, which is bringing people together to have them say things that they didn't know that they could say out loud.

Adam: So it sounds like you're, uh, showing alchemists that they know alchemy, but they didn't know to begin with.

Dasha: Exactly. Exactly.

And I would say one of the, the strongest tools is in inviting them to observe.. And what that gives you the insight to are the small details, the small nuances, the small visuals that are part of that every day.

Inviting people to observe in situations that are difficult, in situations that are dire, in situations that are oppressive, that especially ones that can consume so much of your capacity of thought. You're thinking all the time about the situation you're in,, and inviting a writer to write about air quotes. Anything else is asking a lot. 

Adam: Mmmhmm.

Dasha: But then they find that they are able, and they do have the capacity to write about the first kiss or the letter that they missed, and it gives them a space to see their own life experience as being  a bit more rich, than just speaking a circumstance. 

And that's for someone who's, um, incarcerated, that's for someone who's in an abusive relationship. That's for someone who's stuck in a job. we all have these states that we can be in that feel literally stuck. We're gonna be there for longer than we want to, and just feeling stuck can be. Psychically overwhelming. Does that make sense? .  

Adam: It does. And you know, in this episode we're going to hear a lot more about Odyssey Beyond Bars, starting with this really interesting conversation you had with Peter Moreno. He’s now the director of the project, but it took him some time to get there.. 

Dasha: I think what struck me most is learning that he started as an attorney. And I'm really glad that the universe had him go in this direction, where it's going to have an impact across the state and possibly across the country. So I love those types of stories. I love those types of stories, starting from a gut feeling that you just keep chasing.

Adam: Well, this is that story, that kind of story and that exact story. So, let’s listen to your interview with Peter, and we’ll catch up with you again at the end of the episode.

{>>music break<<}

Dasha: We’re going to start, I'm going to ask you to tell me three stories 

Peter: yup. Yup.

Dasha: First story is a story of you. 

Peter: Um hum

Dasha: Second story is a story of Wisconsin prison. Get up on your soup box, honey. 

Peter: Okay

Dasha: and the third story is a story of Odyssey. 

Peter: I started, working inside the prisons with folks living there about 15 years ago. When I was in law school I wound up in an innocence project clinic at the University of Washington 

Peter: So folks in prison who would write to these innocence projects and say, "Hey, uh, I'm in prison for something I didn't do. Can you help me?" Along the way, you start to learn a lot about the person and how they wound up in prison.

And at the end of the year, we, finally visit the client.  We were expecting that day to have our meeting in an attorney visiting room. ForFfor whatever reason, they didn't have this room available. So we were put in the general visitation area for the prison where all the family and friend visits happen.

And we came in my clinic partner and I were sitting at a table, big round table, waiting for our client to be escorted down by the guards. And then I noticed in the corner, they had a Fisher-Price kitchen with the little plastic pots and pans and the plastic food and stuff. 

at the time I had a new daughter at home who was about 18 months old. And it was the same Fisher-Price kitchen that I had in my living room at home. And all of a sudden, it just hit me that these were human beings in here. These were dads in here like me. And I walked out of the prison with my clinic partner, and I just wept. 

You know, at that point I thought, this is probably some work I need to be doing.

Dasha: This is coming from something that you said and something that is commonly said the question of, huh? How does someone quote, wind up in prison?

So from a, an academic space from the armchairs, social psychologists, we could all talk about family structure and poverty and resources. And intellectually we know these things are real and make sense and describe all the reasons, many of the reasons why many of those humans, as you say, are being warehoused in said buildings. And still prison isn't a place. And still folks who are incarcerated are invisible if thought of,  coupled with a blanket, nondescript…it's not even a negative thought. It's just a disregard, not even a disregard. What is it? Indifference.

Peter: Boy, yeah. We're all aware prisons are there.

And we see these shows on, TV about how horrible prisons are and the violence that goes on there. And its almost like a kind of pornography to us it's like you see this kind of horror and it's like the less I think about it, the better off I am, because it is just horrible to think about.

But the stories that are coming out of prisons sometimes, I mean, the personal stories, the voices, I should say when people are given a platform to express themselves and are able to convey their personal story from inside prison in a way that, uh, other people can hear and understand boy, that humanizes things in a hurry, right?

Dasha: Most definitely. I feel this curving into Odyssey and the prison conversation. 

Peter: Nearing the end of my time in Seattle, I run into someone I sort of knew from University of Washington and they waved me over and they said, Hey, Peter, how are you doing? And I said, oh, Hey Jake, how are you? What are you doing here? And Jake said, well, I'm doing a university beyond bars class, and we're having our last class session today, and come on and check it out. It's going to be quick. And you'll be glad you went. So I, uh, walked in and it was the last class and, I was shocked. 

And the reason I was shocked is I was hearing out of the student's mouths, these expressions of hope and goals, and thought about the future, uh, feelings of pride when they talk to their family and friends about what they were doing. And I just sucked it all in like a dry sponge. Right. And I walked out of the prison that day, uh, feeling like I had never felt walking out of a prison before.   

And I think that's, what's been really cool about education programs that have developed in certain states and are starting to develop in Wisconsin's prisons. It's, allowing students inside to have a voice and to get that voice out, which is wonderful for them and their sense of empowerment, but it also triggers a kind of awareness in the community that is listening to it that wasn't there before, that is forcing people to contemplate these places and the people that are in them.

Dasha: And giving people, creating a platform for them to tell those stories. It's a 360 gift to the person telling the story has this empowerment of, of speaking the truth in the way they need and want to do it. Um, whoever is in that audience is learning something about that person, about another, like you said, another way to be, and it just puts out positive energy into the universe.

{big music cue or break} 

Adam: So Peter had this powerful moment in prison…..and he wanted to get involved in this work. He saw firsthand how humanities-based classes inside prisons could help students reframe their ideas about what’s possible for their futures. 

Then, Peter’s wife got a job that moved the family to Madison, Wisconsin. But Peter still had the dream of starting a prison college program. He figured he needed a partner organization, and every one Peter talked to pointed him towards the Odyssey Project.  

And, there was a good reason for that. Since 2003, The Odyssey Project has been helping folks use humanities education to overcome economic barriers in front of them—  things  ranging from housing insecurity to a lack of childcare options to struggles with substance abuse. So in 2018, Peter walked into their offices. Kevin Mullen remembers that day.

Kevin: And he really was interested in starting a higher education program, um, here at UW, higher education in prison program here at UW. 

At the time, Kevin was working as the Associate Director of the Odyssey Project and teaching an English class.

Kevin: And he had worked with the innocence project for years and had, you know, had a ton of experience with a lot of the people who, who are incarcerated for different reasons. And so I talked a little bit with Peter and we went out to lunch, um, and he said that one of the brightest spots that he would encounter in the prison were the classrooms, right, where there was this feeling of, um, energy and excitement and learning. And, uh, he wanted to see if he could build something like that here at UWhere.  So I talked a bit with Peter and we went out to lunch one day.

Adam: And Peter told him:

Kevin: one of the brightest spots that he would encounter in the prison were the classrooms, right, where there was this feeling of, um, energy and excitement and learning. And, uh, he wanted to see if he could build something like that here.  

Peter: what makes this work such a perfect fit for Odyssey is that's all Odyssey does is empower people to find their voice, which enables all kinds of other personal revelations, uh, for them about what they're able to accomplish and what their role is in the world.

Adam: After that first lunch,Peter and Kevin knew they had a collaboration that made sense. They called it “ Odyssey Beyond Bars.”

Peter: What makes this work such a perfect fit for Odyssey because that's all Odyssey does is empower people to find their voice, which enables all kinds of other personal revelations, uh, for them about what they're able to accomplish and what their role is in the world.

Adam: Now they needed to decide what course they would teach, and who would teach it.  At their next meeting, Kevin had an idea.  

Kevin: I had gotten it in my head that this was, uh, this was something I really wanted to be a part of. And I sat him down and I said, “okay, here's why English 100 would be the best first class to do. It's an intro to college writing. Every kind of incoming first-year student takes it. I explained to him why this was the perfect first class to do and then I explained why I thought I'd be the perfect person to do it.

Adam: And after seeing Kevin and some and his colleagues teach, Peter agreed. 

Peter: what makes this work such a perfect fit for Odyssey because that's all Odyssey does is empower people to find their voice, which enables all kinds of other personal revelations, uh, for them about what they're able to accomplish and what their role is in the world.

Adam: But Peter soon realized that he would be most helpful behind the scenes.

Peter: I thought I was a good instructor until I watched these folks talk and then I realized it's better for me to do administration and, and let these folks come in and do the work because they are amazing.

Adam: So now it was Kevin’s turn to walk into a prison for the first time.

Kevin: The first day was funny because, you know, as you're going into a prison, there's multiple entry points and you kind of slowly getting in. And, um, I got into the classroom and, uh, was there with the education director of the prison. And, um, just before we started, he handed me a, what's called a screamer. He says, oh, just in case anything happens, you're going to just pull this. And the guards will come running.

Adam: A screamer is this thing that is like the size of a yo-yo, and when you pull the string it makes a extreeeemly loud sound. Here’s a very mellow, not too loud example:

{>>screamer sound effect<<}

So then the students walk in and the education director walks out

Kevin: it was the first, maybe minute and a half or two minutes that I suddenly felt a bit nervous, right. How this was a different set of circumstances than I was used to. 

But that lasted about a minute. And then as soon as people started introducing themselves and we started getting the class going, um, it just took off right away. I think they were all just hyper enthusiastic and focused and wanting to do the work.

Adam: And one of the students was Mark Espanol, who we heard from back at the beginning of the episode. At the time, Mark had already earned three technical diplomas and 30 certificates while he was inside. He wasn’t really looking for an English class or a humanities experience, he was hoping to get an associates degree. And Kevin’s English class offered three credits. 

Mark: I was driven by the idea that the system did me so wrong. That I'm going to take everything I can on purpose now. Like you want me to be in prison for 10 years? I, you know, I mean, I accept responsibility. I did something wrong, you know, I deserve to pay for it, but holy Christ, 16 years, they gave me 16 years, 10 in six out for taking somebody to buy drugs from somebody else. Like you want me to be in prison for 10 years, You're going to give me all this free education. And I'm going to ACE it, and I'm gonna show you that I wasn't some kind of heinous criminal to deserve to be in prison for 10 years, you know? And then, um, so I, I signed up for the class and, um, I just, I, it, it just, it blew my mind everything that was coming out of it.

Adam: Kevin’s curriculum is designed to open and challenge minds. For starters, he teaches a lineup of powerhouse writers.  

Kevin: In the first week we read, um, James Baldwins, the creative process, uh, Joan Didion’s Why I Write. And George Orwell’s Why I Write. And they’re all about why these three people create through the written word. 

Adam: And then Kevin turns that question back to his students. 

And then I have the students write about why they write. They write that first draft of why I write. And then as they're working on the second one, they workshop that first draft in the small group and they start to realize that they benefit from having a reader talk about what they're seeing in the work.

So when everybody takes that leap and starts to share their work, it ends up becoming, you know, um, uh, just a strong community of learners

And it ends up becoming this strong community in the classroom because it makes you feel very vulnerable to share your writing in front of a group of people.  

Adam: So once they know why they write, Then they just keep writing. 

Kevin: The first three essays are all kind of more self-reflective and introspective essays where they're writing about, um, either, you know, things that are important to them or ideas that are important to them.

Adam: Next up, the classic research paper.

Kevin: and then we shift from looking inward, kind of looking outward and they write a research editorial on a social issue that's important to them   And they insert their own voice then into that conversation.

Mark: What Kevin did was he was able to reach inside of us for us to get not only creative of what we was doing, but to be able to express ourselves.

Kevin: So when everybody takes that leap and starts to share their work, it ends up becoming, you know, um, uh, just a strong community of learners and outside in the larger prison community, uh, you know, the students, aren't all coming from the same parts of that community, right?

So there's. You know, kind of, um, an important process of breaking down some of the walls that might separate them,  to form this new space and this new set of, of people and, um, conversations so by the end of the semester I think they really feel close to each other as well. 

Adam: And towards the end of the semester, they get to the cornerstone of the course – telling their own story.

It’s a three part storytelling workshop. And one of our producers, Jen Rubin, leads this unit of the course. She works with a team of storytellers, including, that’s how Dasha got involved. Week one is a 90-minute skill-building workshop on how to turn a memory into a story. Week two, several storytellers come in and work in small groups to give a lot of feedback to each student on their story draft.  

Mark: It made me feel human again it made me feel human, that class, that environment that he created allowed us as inmates to not only be vulnerable, but to get to know each other personally, you know, you inmates spend so much time putting on a front, you know, getting into character because they feel that this is what they need to do to get through a day.

That they never tell somebody like, man I'm hurting or this is what I gone through as a kid. You know, when you learned that about a person, you, you even greet them differently. Like, man, how you doing brother? Like, you know what I'm saying? How you feeling today instead of what's up, you know? It was the greatest experience. That one class topped everything that I ever did while I was incarcerated. 

Adam: And towards the end of the semester, they get to the cornerstone of the course – telling their own story.

It’s a three-part storytelling workshop. And one of our producers, Jen Rubin, leads this unit of the course. She works with a team of storytellers, including, of course, Dasha. Week one is a 90-minute skill-building workshop on how to turn a memory into a story. Week two, several storytellers come in and work in small groups to give a lot of feedback to each student on their story draft. Here’s Kevin again.

Kevin: And the structure is really helpful, right? Because that, you know, you're taking the chaos of experience and you're pouring it into the order of a narrative. Right. And that's a clarifying process in itself. Right. Because you're trying to make sense of all these different things that happen in the world and then create something that has that arc, you know, and that will capture the, the listener's attention and then we'll get to a certain place and we will end up with a kind of reflection  

Adam: Here’s Mark. 

Mark: prior to this class, I didn't think nobody wanted to hear my story. Who wants to hear about some sad dude that was locked up and you know what I'm saying? Who cares? Everybody goes through stuff, but I, I don't know. I, you know, I started believing that maybe my story can help one person. 

Adam: So often people in prison are told this is your story…this is who you are…this is why you ended up in prison. So what’s the value of learning how to craft a good story?  It can give that person the tools they need to reimagine the stories they tell about their own life. And just because students are in prison doesn’t mean you have to tell some kind of prison origin story. The instructors encourage them to tell stories about anything - your first kiss!  You can tell a heavy story from your childhood…whatever story YOU want to craft about yourself. 

Kevin: Every time there are some stories that are funny. There are some that will make you tear up. There are some that are hard to hear, but, but there is that range in every single classroom because people can go any way they want with it. You know, they've got the mic and five minutes.

Adam: And that five minutes comes on the last day of class, when the students gather in a room to tell the stories they have been working on…in front of the class, and OBB staff, and volunteers. and sometimes prison officials and administrators.  

Kevin: there are so many students who have anxiety and they're getting up in front of somewhere in between, let's say 20 and 40 people, depending on the year and telling their story and just the fact that they were able to do it is a huge win because I know where they were 15 weeks before that, you know, the storytelling part  is really intimidating, especially when I say they are going to do this on day one And  that's an incredibly big ask, but by that point in the semester, they're ready to, they're ready to get up on the stage and tell their story.

Mark (story tape): Alright, here goes nothing here...

Thinking that he was running into the living room only to find a scene of another domestic dispute that sadly had already become normal to him. At this age, he was shocked and stunned by the image he encountered.. There in the middle of the living room where he used to enjoy laying on a couch, drinking his warm bottle of milk stood his sister, Cathy holding her boyfriend, Ricky, who had just been shot.”

{music up}

Adam: Each of us is made up of a million moments…a million stories. Some of them are big moments. That time you got in trouble. Or the time you quit that job. But our stories are also cumulative. Our everyday stories add up to something bigger. And this writing assignment gave Mark permission to dig into his memories in a way he never had before.  

Mark: It wasn't until I started doing that, that I started to, uh, actually even getting over some of the things that, that still haunted me, you know, childhood memories. And that's why I did that story, you know? Cause as you can imagine for, you know, almost a decade I've sat in prison just wondering where I went wrong, you know, how did I get here? 

And, um, it all went back to that apartment, things that I witnessed, things that I was exposed to as a child that I should have never been exposed to. And that story was one day. It sucked that I had to go through that as a five-year-old. 

Adam:“That story was one day” Just a single day. I think figuring out how to tell your own story…how to organize your memories and find the meaning in them…can be useful in metabolizing trauma. And it also gives anyone in the room hearing the story access to humanity outside of their own.   

Mark: when I finally did it at the graduation, I was just hoping that the people who were sitting in the crowd that had any kind of power to change the things that were going on, especially in Oak Hill, that it would touch them and they would understand like, look, a lot of us,. You know, you, you grew up in a household where everything is chaotic, it does something to you.

You know what Kevin did was he was able to reach inside of us for us to get not only creative with what we were doing but to be able to express ourselves.  

It made me feel human again it made me feel human, that class, that environment that he created allowed us as inmates to not only be vulnerable, but to get to know each other personally, you know, you inmates spend so much time putting on a front, you know, getting into character because they feel that this is what they need to do to get through a day.

That they never tell somebody like, man I'm hurting or this is what I gone through as a kid. You know, when you learned that about a person, you, you even greet them differently. Like, man, how you doing brother? Like, you know what I'm saying? How you feeling today instead of what's up, you know? It was the greatest experience. That one class topped everything that I ever did while I was incarcerated. 

Adam: this storytelling workshop impacts more than just the individual storytellers. It impacts EVERYONE in that room. And it has helped the program grow.

Department of Corrections and UW staff often attend final storytelling sessions like the one where Mark told his story, and leave feeling the resolve to make more classes possible. Here’s Peter:

Peter: when I first started doing this work and prior to that, It was really difficult to imagine that we would be in the place where we are now, where there is some real enthusiasm about this issue statewide

Adam: Peter keeps pushing to grow Odyssey Beyond Bars. What started as one course  once a year at one prison is now in three more. And there are now several other courses to go along with English 100.

Peter sees this as a new model for how education can work for incarcerated people.

Peter: My vision for Wisconsin prisons is for a person when they enter the prison system, they sit down with an advisor and they talk about where they want to go and where they want to wind up. So they start making plans early about what they want to learn while they're still in prison and where they want to be when they get out,

we're in a position here in Wisconsin, where we are at the outset of doing something really big in prison education, which by the way, if we're successful, we're going to change the way people are incarcerated in this state. We're going to change the focus of the criminal justice system in that regard, which is super exciting. So we're getting there. We're getting there. 

Adam: And research supports what Peter is saying here. A study by the Rand Corporation found that people involved in prison education programs had a 43% lower chance of going back to prison after release and a 13% higher chance of getting a job after prison. But we don’t need a study to understand that people who complete college coursework while incarcerated are more likely to be economically self-sufficient after re-entry. And see themselves and their possibilities differently.  Here’s Mark.

Mark: these classes I believe that they change people in the sense of a person that feels educated, knows better, and in knowing better you do better. You know, there's nothing that's going to steer you off your positive path 

So instead of you becoming desperate or, or impatient about like, how am I going to get out of this? How am I going to get money? How… That educated side of you tells you everything's going to be all right, because I'm strong and I am capable of achieving anything I want to achieve.and these classes do that for you.

Adam: I am capable of achieving anything I want to achieve.

Dasha: Anything. anything. One more time for the people in the back. Anything,

Adam: Absolutely. Welcome back, Dasha. We've been, uh, quite a ways in the story since we last were with you. Can you talk about the change that you've seen in a person's life coming outta one of these classes?

Dasha: Absolutely, absolutely. Seeing this change, Adam, is why I've stayed in this work so long and I'll rephrase that. Seeing this change is why the work has kept me for so long, because there are many days I was going to put these degrees to a different use and make me a bunch of money

But to have a 16-year-old come and say, you know what? I'm really used to getting people to go along with me to do, to make problems. I've never had anybody listen to me as a leader. And now I know I can.

I know I can have people listen to me, which for their own calculation means that what they have to say matters. And going to these carceral spaces in particular, it shifts the skill sets, um, and the calculations. The human calculations that, um, in many cases that have kept them alive, that have kept them in the survival mode for so long.

So to have someone be able to process a story, and it's not a small thing to go from this memory that you had and convert that memory into a five-minute, representation that is engaging to someone who doesn't know you and wasn't at that memory is not a small thing. then have the courage to share that story, especially if it's something that's not flattering or something that was painful.

Takes a lot of energy and a lot of bravery.   This thing that has terrified me for most of my life doesn't scare me anymore.  

So that's an intimate engagement, and you don't let go of that. You don't drop that. And if nothing else, you know you're capable of it. And. And I think they realize that this has been in them the whole time, and now they've been given the invitation and the permission to access it, to look for it, and to wield it. For their own good benefit and for their own peace and for their own next steps in life. So that's been, I think, the, I, I, I think that's what people have, have, find themselves clinging to and being surprised by and all of that through the process of writing a poem and the process of sharing their story with other people.

so that's been an incredible, and it's people, all the things that you can imagine, they're, they're walking with their head higher, with their back straight, and most importantly, seeing themselves as complete whole people. Complete whole people warts and all.

Adam: and it can feel like maybe even just to spell it out entirely, someone sitting in one of the Odyssey Beyond Bars classes might feel as if. All the circumstances they find them in are saying,  you are the only experience that matters in your life, was the biggest mistake you've ever made, and nothing else. So these classes have a way, of opening up the rest of a person's existence when they've, that door feels that as if it's been shut by the institution.

Dasha: Mm-hmm.

Adam: Hmm.

Dasha: I would say not even as the institution, but by society,

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Dasha: by society.

Adam: Absolutely. 

Adam: I found this, it's one thing to write a good piece. It's another thing to to deliver it in front of a group of people. Whenever I'm able to compose something, it, it makes me nervous.   but when I have to get in front of people and deliver something, it turns me into a puddle of goo.

it always makes me nervous. so we just heard, Mark, um, both recite and deliver a piece he'd written talk about the performance the act of not just writing something and handing it to someone, but delivering it to them.  what added dimensions that brings to an experience, especially a class like this.

Dasha: It makes the story more, literally more accessible. so. Uh, not just hearing the words and hearing the story, but I'm taking an inflection. I'm looking at body language and again, it becomes a communal experience. I am listening to this story with other humans bringing this in.

So a little bit of nerves on your part, on the upfront is worth it for everybody. So I'll just say that out loud. I'm glad you worked yourself through it, Adam. Um, and for the person, what they realize is that the things that they're nervous about on the upfront, Again, is this gonna be X, y, Z enough?  

Am I gonna make a mistake?  Am I gonna forget something?   are people going to get it? Cuz mind you, you've already put the work into the words, the writing part, and on the other side of the performance or the delivery or the speech one, the relief that they did it that it's out there.

And that applause, even if it's polite applause, that applause is punctuation, that you did this thing, it has been received by said audience, and you have added your own magic to this room. And there's a relief there. And then the best part is when they're, they get the feedback, um, from someone pulling them to the side, Hey, that really moved me and informed me

whatever the feedback is, at least one human had a res, had a reaction to this experience of yours that you have shared. That is powerful.  

And I tell everyone that every time that you get up and share your story, there's someone in that room who needed to hear it. They either needed to hear it from you, they needed to see a person in your profile, um, or they needed to hear that particular story.

{>>music break<<}

Adam: Speaking of amazing stories, thank you to Mark, Peter and Kevin for sharing the incredible story of Odyssey Beyond Bars with us today.

Dasha: Yes, thank you. Who are we going to be thanking next week?

Adam: We're staying with a student of the Odyssey Beyond Bars program, Robert Taliaferro, who had this remarkable and unbelievable story as a newspaper editor, as a spy, as all these other things. And we're also gonna be meeting and we're also gonna be meeting one of the most amazing people working in Milwaukee and Wisconsin right now. Shannon Ross, uh, who also is an editor with a newsletter.

Dasha: Sounds like my kind of people.

 {>>music break<<}

Adam: I'm gonna leave us with a little clip of Robert talking about the other guys that were in the Odyssey Beyond Bars class with him and the respect he had for them as writers.

Robert: Man I'll tell you, the Odyssey project… I'm an honor, because I got to meet. Some of the best writers I would have hired any single one of them, these kids, when they .started, they were tentative and all that. When we got done with that Odyssey program, I told them, I said, I would hire any single one of you on my newspaper. . I've done a lot of writing I’ve won a ton of awards,t but the best experience that I had was working with the Odyssey program and being able to, and I'm so blessed. I was glad that I was in that project because it was the best experience. I had in my life as a writer, because. I got to meet some amazing writers that people would never know existed. Unless you,  you know, you have a program like the Odyssey program.

CREDITS

Human Powered is a podcast from Wisconsin Humanities and Field Noise Soundworks. Our senior producer is Craig Eley. Craig also edits and mixes the show. Producers are Jade Iseri (eye-SIRI)-Ramos and Jen Rubin. Creative producer is Jessica Becker and the Executive producer is Dena Wortzel. The Human Powered  interns are Megan Gorden, Kali Froncek (Frawn-cek), Alejandro Dominguez, and Kamika Patel. The outro music is by the band Upheaval, they were a prison band at Waupun Correctional Institution in the 1970s. Thanks to the Wisconsin Department of Corrections for letting us share Mark’s story. the conversation we recorded with Fontaine.

I encourage you to check out some Episode Extras on the Wisconsin Humanities website where you can learn more about the people featured in the episode. You can also hear the full poems read by Fontaine, Andron, Caliph, Bodine and Ventae. Want to know where prisons are and how many people are in them? We link to a map where you can look up incarceration in your county—or anywhere in the country. 

Check out our episode webpage on the Wisconsin Humanities website to learn more about the people featured in the episode, more on the Odyssey Project and to hear the full story that Makr Español and other students told through the Odyseey Beyond Bars class. You can find it at All of that can be found at Wisconsinhumanities.org/podcast.  

And if you haven’t already, subscribe to Human Powered now so you don’t miss our new episodes.